April 30, 2020

Tubular Trends with Denis Crushell

Welcome to a new corona-times Video Insiders podcast episode. This week we chat with Denis Crushell.

Denis is the international managing director at Tubular Labs and has an impressive career path with tons of experience in web analytics. Before his role at Tubular, he spent 8 years at Google as the head of sponsorships at YouTube and a Google account manager.

Tubular Labs is a real-time video analytics platform that analyses engagement across millions of online video viewers and tracks billions of videos across platforms like YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. It's similar to  Google Analytics, Nielsen, ComScore, or BARB for the social video on the web. 

Here are some of the subjects that Denis talks with Tom during the show. 

  • Why YouTube is still dominant and what would it take for a video platform to surpass its popularity.
  • How Tubular deals with measurement when viewing activity is often not is the intended audience or a parent’s account.
  • How YouTube’s audience is still growing in Europe and other countries and media companies are increasingly investing in the platform.
  • How Covid-19 has changed content consumption and viewership behavior. What kind of content is being uploaded and watched more during the pandemic?

...and much more. 

The Video Insiders Podcast #34 - Denis Curshell from Tubular Labs

Once again, thanks to Denis for taking the time to come to the show. Here are some of the links to the Tubular insights and research guides that were mentioned in the show. 


The Video Insiders Podcast is supported by TubeBuddy. You can use the same pro tools that we do and that YouTube professionals like we do to manage multiple channels. Click here for a special offer for Video Insider listeners.

Follow Tom on Twitter @channel_fuel and Carlos at @carlospache_co on Twitter. Podcast Music by Planets Collide and podcast editing by Joe Pacheco 


Machine-Generated Podcast Transcript

What follows is an Otter AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.

Carlos Pacheco
Welcome to the video staying inside podcasts the video insiders podcast

Tom Martin
It's so strange because I didn't know people that weren't that could do dad jokes.

Carlos Pacheco
Well, I am a fur daddy

Tom Martin
furdaddy? I hadn't heard that one before. You haven't

Carlos Pacheco
You hadn't heard that one?

No, don't go there

Tom Martin
It's a great start to the podcast people.

Carlos Pacheco
Exactly. So, we this is not a podcast about being furries. This is a podcast about the behind the scenes of YouTube and online creators, people who manage YouTube channels who manage content libraries, both Tom and I have been behind the scenes managing YouTube channels, optimizing creator channels for close to eight years. So probably combined. We're at 15 or something and many billions of us be under So that's us, Tom, how have you been?

Tom Martin
Yeah, I've just been keep on keeping on just spending a lot of time on zoom. And, you know, I heard that there was some kind of security problem with zoom lately, and I don't sue us. So yeah, just a little bit concerned, but not too much. I don't really get away much secrets over zoom. But yeah, we'll be looking into that. And I think they've actually had some changes. Since I've, since that all kind of came to light now, people that come into my meetings have to sit in the waiting room, which is interesting. Probably for them.

Carlos Pacheco
Yeah, the zoom things been interesting. I went on my first sort of like client call recently that was like, more than just three people was like, nine people and I was like, fascinating because up until now, I've used zoom for like one on one calls, maybe three calls but like never big, big group. And I was calling quite impressed at the you know, quality of it. Yeah. Also, like, I don't know about you, but our world right now like anybody works on the internet. All you do is manage chat and video apps like literally that's all I do. Yeah, I am on messenger, WhatsApp, slack teams, and then zoom and then Google Hangouts. And then obviously, yeah, Google Hangouts. And it's like, crazy. This is the world we live in. Like I have clients that are just Google Hangouts, or clients or zoom and our clients that our teams and our clients that are that are obviously on Slack, the world of messaging on the web is bonkers

Tom Martin
to me, and you message through iMessage, but also sometimes WhatsApp which kind of throws me off sometimes. Then I've got messages that come through on my desktop from home message. So that also throws me off. And then we're emailing and we've I've got about six email addresses each. And actually, and that's just the conversations between us too. Yeah. Yeah, multiply that by like the million people that you speak to regularly and it all gets pretty hot pretty quickly.

Carlos Pacheco
Yes. So obviously this is not this week in messengers. So we are the video insiders before. We're gonna have another interview show, obviously. But before we get into it, let's thank our founding sponsor to buddy to buddy is the ultimate tool to optimize your YouTube channel and get more views. We use and recommend to buddies to all our clients, TubeBuddy, not two buddies to help manage their YouTube channels to help optimize their YouTube channels. Often I like to talk about the tools that I use the most templates are amazing. On TubeBuddy, I use templates to set up end cards, info cards, so they don't have to think about it every single time and I have to go through the process of fixing every single video. Having a bulk tool that saves templates. It's not just one template tomorrow. templates. It's a great little tool for TubeBuddy that can be really useful. Tom, how can people sign up?

Tom Martin
Yeah, you can get an exclusive video inside as a multi channel discount by visiting video insiders.fm forward slash cheerilee. Thank you, TubeBuddy!

Yeah, so today, it's me at the interview helm, and I'm interviewing a industry store, someone who I've known for many years, many years since my time back at the BBC, are really just top bloke as well as you know, really, really knowledgeable. This is an interview with Denis Crushell from tubular does tubular labs and tubular insights, which is an amazing, amazing data tracking tools software does so much calling it a data tracking tool makes it sound just just like a kind of throw away piece of software but this is kind of like enterprise level credit. Easy, crazy stuff. You know, people always email me whenever I'm consulting with them. I just they know that I'm the person to say like, Do you know any tools that can do this? And I'm like, well, there's tubular. And not much else really does really stand, head and shoulders above the competition. And I've been lucky enough to work for a couple of companies that have had cheaper licenses. Another thing that people are famous for is sharing their insights. So they, they always publish really cool stuff on their blogs. They've got a whole separate website, cheaply insights, which is dedicated to sharing the findings that they have, and they always have some kind of presence VidCon, stuff like that, where they talk about what's the latest trends in video news are always fascinating. And we've actually got some really fascinating stuff from dentists coming up around the latest trends, especially in these crazy Well, I now refer to them to my kids is like Corona times. So yeah, really interested to get into this and me and call us we'll be back on the other side to wrap up the conversation. So this is me and Dennis.

So today's guest is a good friend of mine, somebody who I've known now for Wow, many, many years, at least five, six years since he came into their offices at the BBC to talk to us about his product of which he's going to talk to more about today. So please give a warm Video Insiders welcome to Denis Crushell. Is that how you pronounce your name Denis? Yeah?

Denis Crushell:
Denis Crushell, Yeah…

Tom Martin:
From Tubular Labs, Tubular insights. It's a pleasure to have you on Denis. Please give our audience if they don't know you. If you're in the video industry, no doubt you've met Denis. But just in case, please can you give our radio insiders listeners a bit of insight into who you You are where your journey in career started in the video industry and how you got to Tubular, I think you might be from my research one of the few ex-Googlers to be on the show. So that'd be very interesting to get that story.

Denis Crushell
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for the introduction, I think. Yeah, my background. So I've worked at tubular now for just over four years, and I are head of international, MD, here in London. So looking after the European and Asian markets, but my background before tubular labs, I was at Google YouTube for just over 10 years. And I worked always kind of working well, first of all, kind of working more in the search side of things with a lot of retail clients and stuff, and then moving more into YouTube over time. So before I left, Google, I was head of sponsorship YouTube sponsorship for a Mia which was working with lots of YouTubers. And and media companies to look at like brand integrations, big media sponsorships at YouTube. So yeah, that's my background.

Tom Martin
That's really interesting. Actually, I've got some more questions around sponsorships coming up just a little bit later. But also, it'd be really useful to have a quick recap for people that don't know, again, I think most people will have heard of Tubular before but it'd be really great to know a little bit more about the the tool and the product itself and how it differs for different from his competition on the market.

Denis Crushell
Yeah, good question. So I think Yeah, Tubular Labs, we are an online video measurement company. So we have been for the last eight years, we have actually been measuring online video so and social video specifically so YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Twitch as well. So we, if you think of like, I think a lot of a lot of your guests will have used like a platform like Google Analytics. We basically are like Google Analytics for the entire of YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, in terms of online video. So we help companies and know what audiences are consuming to help them grow audiences, but as well to monetize audiences, so whether that is selling branded content, we work with the likes of lad Bible BuzzFeed voice, or whether it is your main income is kind of monetizing YouTube views. So people like BBC studios, or Viacom or others, helping them just get large, large audiences on the platform by really looking at like, what content is working well, who are the biggest influencers? And yeah, that's that's what we do in terms of the competition. We really are now positioning ourselves in terms of a measurement standard and looking at how big these audiences are. We've announced over the last few months where we've like looked at New metrics like unique viewers and minutes watched For the first time ever, so where you can see these metrics. So in that side of things, we would really see ourselves kind of in the space of someone like a Nielsen and comScore or a BB in the UK, measuring more traditional media or websites, how big they are. And then but then yeah, on where we're, we're part of this YouTube measurement program where YouTube gives us a lot of access to their data to measures. And there's other companies would on that there's people like open slate, and with yours and other company, how we differ from them open slate very much focuses kind of on ad buying. And someone like with you, I think has an analytics platform kind of more for creator focus, versus kind of media company focus. Yeah, so that's kind of how we differ.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I think it's really important to just double clarify that I know you said you're similar to Google Analytics, but you actually provide analytics for all of the channels not just the channel, of the person. his account is so especially for looking at kind of industry wide trends, competition analysis tubular is super powerful like beyond powerful and I've been lucky to work at companies that had Tubular tools and access and it's mind blowing the amount of of access and the amount of information in there. So yeah, huge kudos to that. We'll we'll come back to talking about the tools and the and the products a bit later. But what I really want to double down on at the moment is that last time I spoke to Denis was at VidCon, London and we have met many vid cons. Yeah, here, here and far. And one thing that like you can kind of set your watch by is that any VidCon you are going to present around the kind of YouTube trends and video viewing trends and specifically in Europe, yet that been like your main market. Yeah, you know, these are like must have 10 sessions and you always publish the report. As well, we'll link to that. But I really want to dive into your latest report, which you presented and released. Back in February. I'm thinking it seems like I'm saying, yeah, it seems okay. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so that conference sent out where me and Dennis presented and Spokane is now an emergency medical hospital crazy. kinda crazy. And we will touch on some post COVID trends as well, a little bit later. Yeah, I'd love to I'd like to dive into that report. And as I say, we'll link to that so you can read through it as well. Yeah, but I've got some kind of direct questions that I've kind of picked out. Yeah. After after diving into that. So I'd love to get your opinion on these. So I think the biggest kind of not not that surprising, but the biggest kind of find in early on in the report says that YouTube is still the dominant platform when it comes to video viewing. But my question to you is, is there really add any space for a true competitor to YouTube when it comes to video viewership, like will they ever be knocked off their perch? And, you know, if there was going to be a compare let's say it was Amazon or whoever it may be that you think is most likely the How long would it take to knock a juggernaut like YouTube off of that? Yeah.

Denis Crushell
Yeah, I think I think I think what's fascinating as well for like my background, where I was at Google and everything, like seeing companies like like, I guess, volume, first of all that Twitter boss that was doing quite well, then obviously, Snapchat became quite big. Then we had Facebook really get very, very large back in 2016, I would say and the 2015 2016 I think YouTube has never like been a fad. It's really just been been growing and going bigger and bigger over many years. And I think it never really will be a fad. Because it's really an entertainment hub versus like social at its core. Right now things can be more fatty when it's kind of like, in trend that my friends are on there, or my friends are not on there. People are going to YouTube, they don't care if their friends are on there or not. They're just consuming entertainment. And I think what we're seeing actually with the COVID stuff is like people's habits are changing so much. So like, like, Joe Wicks, that body coachguy is doing a pe class every day at the moment at 9am for people's kids. And like,

Tom Martin
he's the only thing that's stopping me from turning into a whale at the moment in that class with

my kids in the morning.

Denis Crushell
Briliant, which is like, yeah, and which is like I think people's habits are changing, like will people do more fitness videos at home or, like at least more people know now about like this amazing fitness content on YouTube, or whether it's food content or dry content. I think some of the people in my extended family are like tuning into netflix documentaries for the first time ever. And I think that habit will have changed after COVID-19 Yeah,

Tom Martin
That's another thing that you know the the talk around Tiger King. Yes. I mean fleet isn't everyone. Everyone's at home. Yeah, I thought really, I thought that Disney plus would be the thing on everyone's lips. But to me, it might just be my bubble of people on my social networks, but Tiger King is definitely Yeah, it's winning in the beam wars.

Denis Crushell
Yes, definitely. And it's it's strange how certain things can bubble up like that. It's so unexpected, but I guess that's back to like with Netflix and YouTube. Like there's so much content on there. There that like things bubble up and like the cream kind of comes to the top but I think Back to the question about platforms, I think. Yes, YouTube is a juggernaut. It's absolutely massive. I think we also see this, Facebook, Instagram are very, very large, different kind of consumption patterns. And then I think there's a lot of talk right now about Tick tock, for sure. And that's doing well. I think what's interesting in the report that we shared is like, one thing that we shared in there was like, minutes watched by age groups. And we have this for like YouTube and Facebook. And the biggest age buckets are 18 to 34 year olds for consumption on YouTube and Facebook. So it's like over 50% were like 13 to 17 year olds was only 4%. So I do think maybe some of those audiences are going to places like tik tok or other younger platforms. But I think what's interesting is those younger platforms want to age up all the time as well. Kind of like YouTube. Did 1015 years ago,

Tom Martin
but I suppose this a question for you, and I'm not sure if you have an answer or be interested in how your company is trying to broach here. But yeah, when you're talking about measurement for age groups and stuff, how do you deal with the fact that, you know, most of the time when my kids are watching YouTube, they're watching it on my account, or they're watching it not logged in. And, you know, if someone looked at my view in history, it'd be a lot of it'd be Joe weeks every morning, but it would be, you know, horrid Henry or Benton, however it would be. So how do you deal with that as a measurement company knowing that yes, not necessarily all activity is happening by the person who owns that account? Yeah, surely does skew the numbers to a certain extent.

Denis Crushell
Yeah, it does. I like I think, looking at anyone who's meant to be on YouTube is meant to be like logged in account. Have over 13 years of age and your accounts consuming that content where your kids are viewing it, or your cool viewing us would report back that it's you the parent. Yeah, we're not looking at. We're not looking at like trying to understand audiences under 13 years of age. But you will see in our data, that it's like parents accounts or devices consuming this content, when a lot of the content is about kids content. I think we were actually the first company to our knowledge to like, start to split out like kids content or parent content, we call it we have a content on our kids content in our platform. Before that was something that was done. But I think now where we've seen the recent changes with YouTube, where they are now classifying kids content and that whole piece is being better understood those consumption levels is good. I think it's more transparency is in the into the industry of actually who is viewing this stuff. And, and making sure that there's appropriate advertisers around that content and advertisers know who they're targeting as well. Yeah. Which is important.

Tom Martin
Yeah. Really important. Yeah. Because I've, I've kind of been on my soapbox a number of times, talking about how like, when my kids are watching YouTube for years, they've been targeted, like visit Iceland or airline, or Gillette and it's, it's like, Yeah, well, my, my kids don't care because they're skipping them as soon as possible. Opportunity. But you know, that's Gillette ad money in Turkey. She's Turkish Airlines ad money. Yeah. And visit Iceland's ad money. That's pretty much just being lit on fire. But that's a whole nother that's a whole nother conversation.

Denis Crushell
I think it is. I think, you know, and I used to always see that in the past, like where advertisers will be advertising on YouTube. And it'd be like targeting audiences and appear around gaming or kids content this when I was at Google, and like, that always was going to have to be cleaned up or be more transparent or something is my point of view.

Tom Martin
You mentioned previously that YouTube was the juggernaut and still growing in your report, it shows that Europe is still really a growth market despite it being kind of so mature. Do you think that Europe will kind of peak in the next few years in terms of consumption? Because you know, how, how much more can it grow before it reaches kind of full penetration in Europe? Yeah. And outside of Europe, what the kind of big geographical growth areas that you're seeing a cheaper

Denis Crushell
Yeah, I think, I think we'll keep continue to grow. I think I remember a few years ago, there was like some studies I saw were like, YouTube was about 5% of total minutes watched of TV, I'm sure I think that was like about five, six years ago. I saw that report. So I'm sure it's probably more like 10% door. In between 10 or 15%, or something now of like minutes watched, even though it's hard to look at apples to apples, which is something that we've been working on with a lot of our clients, we have something called a global video measurement Alliance, where we're working with we're working with Vice BuzzFeed, Viacom and other partners within dash to like try and create these standards. So you can measure TV, like online video, such as minutes watch your unique viewers. But yes, I think it will continue to keep on growing ones that still at that small base as a total percentage. So and I think in the report, we showed that like different countries, views, not minutes watched are growing anywhere between 10 to 25%, depending on the country, and that's not minutes watched, which we know is even growing faster, like YouTube have come out even I think in the last year or two To say, minutes watched is like 50%. growth year on year. I mean, that came out two years ago. So like, there's probably greater growth in terms of minutes watched. And yeah, I think that will continue in these countries. I think countries that are like going faster and stuff, I think, I think countries like the Nordics, where broadband speeds are very, very high. Maybe they're a little bit underserved with, like local content, we see that it's even higher there for some of those countries. I think, yeah, in the Middle East, in Russia, those countries have become very, very big on YouTube, from a consumption point of view. So it seems to be growing kind of all over. I think. I think what's really interesting though, in the reports, one last point not is like we have a we have a slide in here, which Yeah, we'll have the link afterwards, but like me Companies Year and Year seem to be investing more in YouTube. So it seems that media companies are getting the economics to work a bit better for them, which is mostly ad driven. I think we're probably seeing as well, maybe some of these companies, media companies look to do more direct ad sales as well, and try to work with Google on that, particularly with all of the brand safety points that have been bubbling up over the last few years. But I do think the economics seem to be working a bit better for media companies are getting real scale there. And we're seeing that they're investing more content than YouTube. And if there's better quality content coming on there, there's no reason why those audiences won't even shift more. Yeah, yeah. So there was Yes.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I think there's probably a bit of confidence knocked out of the Instagram influencer market with public controversy around like fake fake followers and paid for followers and stuff like that. Whereas YouTube generally, of course, there's bought there's paid for views and paid for followers but I think it has less. Now it has a lot of bot detection and stuff like that whereas influent whereas Instagram probably has less interest in closing down kind of bot accounts and artificially inflated accounts, where YouTube I think can quite easily kind of detected the Li like views from bots and stuff like that, but who knows I'm just getting nerdy.

So was kind of next for tubular is there like some new features that are on the horizon that you're yeah excited. I don't if you can talk about any of them on or she got some super…

Denis Crushell
well, I think one thing actually that's leading to this but as well kind of, you're saying a new, interesting use cases of tubular like, where we work with some clients as well where we give them like data feeds and it's interesting to see kind of some of the products and stuff people are creating on their side. And via using Tubular like I saw an example yesterday where someone has like a slack bot created on their side where they can kind of just quickly ask for information about any influencer or media company. Where else the audience spend time. I don't know if you'll remember that feature, Tom, but it looks like where else my audience has spent time. And that's cool to see like companies integrate tubular data for hundreds of employees at a company via communication tools. And then I would say yes, where we're going and everything. So I think that is insteresting.

Seeing like people using our data mixing with other data such as like, point of sale for toys, or integrating into workflow products, then I would say as well, a big initiative for us over the last year has been this global video measurement Alliance, where we have worked with these partners and global video measurement Alliance. And with us, like we've now worked with how many companies is that it's about 12. We work with like brew BuzzFeed discovery free media, electric house, a UK company here, Mattel web media, and we're working with them on like, creating measurement standards for the industry. And what we're trying to do there is really create better and stronger

economics of the marketplace of people investing in online video if you're an advertiser, but as well if you're a media company or influencer, making sure that you're able to tell people about the size of your audience, and that's something that we've been

really focused on for the last year. And we're bringing out like, very interesting data around, around minutes watched, really kind of reach and frequency, if you think about like, even how brands like to invest. So that's been something that we're we're very focused on. And we're excited about, like, bringing out more metrics around that. And, and, and really kind of creating a currency just like the way you think of comScore Nielsen is a currency at Jupiter having a currency, where agencies and brands maybe use it more in like planning campaigns. So that's what we're very excited about at the moment.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I think that can only be more positive for any anyone working in video because it means that if advertisers have got more trust and faith in where their advertising dollars are going, it will hope they'll hopefully realize that it's a lot more effective than traditional, you know, kind of analog TV advertising print and stuff like that. Yeah, so a few more of those dollars will be moving the way of the digital should.

Thanks so much Denis. Where can people hear more about you and tubular work where's the best place people can go We'll link to all of the specific articles you've mentioned but where would you like people to kind of get to view or do you?

Denis Crushell
Yeah, you can you can email me directly if you want denis@tubularlabs.com. But otherwise I'd recommend Yeah, people go to our websites and there's a lot of research and insights we give out to the industry in general to help people pay even if you're not working directly with us but so I would tell our website tubular labs comm is a great place to visit you can also sign up to her like free product there where you can look at like how you rank versus others on a global capacity on YouTube and Facebook or leaderboard product. And yeah, so I would say our website Jupiter labs comm or get in touch on email or LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on as well.

Tom Martin
Cool. Thanks, Denis. It's been absolutely fascinating and yeah, look forward to hearing more from you. Always in interested to hear your latest reports. And I'm sure they're going to be even more interesting and more important, the current situation in the world so thanks a million Denis. Yeah, make sure you go and check out all of the incredible stuff that we'll be linking to in the show notes.

Denis Crushell
Thank you. Bye, everyone.

Carlos Pacheco
That was great. Tom Tubular is one of those platforms that I remember jumping on many many years ago when it when it launched and being like, finally, somebody who's doing this because the whole comparison of like Nielsen and comScore , BARB… one of the biggest frustrations when I was in marketing is the lack of support for digital real digital tracking from these old school platforms, right? The the Nielsen the comScore to this world. So, you know, tubular, I knew exactly what they were trying to do, and it's great to hear that they've established themselves as you know, the Nielsen of YouTube in a way, and can give that you know all those insights and information that all of us that create video online. We don't care about how much views ABC TV makes we care about how many views TikTok does Facebook. So there needed to be a specific video platform to serve that. Yeah. And the fact that he comes from Google and YouTube for many years, you know, that he's got some serious credit knows what he's talking about.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I've known Denis for a number of years, and I didn't really I obviously had done my research before the interview, but it was, you know, it's not like I knew him as like an ex YouTube ex Googler. So that's really interesting to get that perspective. And yeah, and it makes sense because he really does get creators, he gets publishers and he just lives and breathes. It is like so dedicated. It's so knowledgeable and the as I say, they're really generous with that with that they was there any kind of trend trend and stuff from the reportsFrom the kind of Coronavirus type trends that surprised you, or was it all kind of Yeah, standard?

Carlos Pacheco
I mean, from the from the you Facebook know, one of the comments that he made that was sort of like total like, Yes, I know that that happens is the whole like how these new platforms, the platforms that are quote unquote, going viral the cups of the world, they're all trying to age up. They're all trying to age up because let's face it, like and I think I've sort of like been on the soapbox before in previous episodes is, you know, yes, you get scale, quote, unquote, scale from the kids, but that's not where you're gonna make money. It's the same situation, you know, you can compare it to what we're seeing right now with the whole, you know, Corona ad pocalypse in a way right? Yes, you get tons of views, but like money is nowhere to be seen. Yes. You know, the the whole fallacy of like, we need to target kids. Yes, there's certain brands but there's a lot more brands out there that care about

An older demographic with money and older demographics with money are not spending, you know, two hours a day on tik tok. They're spending that time on more established platforms. That's why it's YouTube's done, its best to clean its act up. And every platform is trying to do the clean act up, but they all play the same game of like, getting scale from kids and then to last, hopefully the last long enough to get that great older audience to get into, you know, to make real money. Yeah, that's the sort of point that I really that was interesting that, you know, I love the fact that he sort of confirmed my, my opinion.

And also, you know, like the minutes washed point about how you know, 18 to 34 on Facebook, YouTube, represents 50% of the audience, whereas he mentioned 4% 13 to 17. But I wasn't clear as to if it was Facebook or YouTube because I think YouTube still has a lot of that audience. The younger demographic has definitely dropped off Facebook.

So again, those type of like, you know, insights are very fun to sort of like, pay attention to and put out there and make people realize that that's why, you know, you don't make as much money in certain platforms versus others.

Tom Martin
So I think the fact that Denis and chilla published this kind of what's what's the trend in the BC report? And like sport was a big thing. And then, you know, a month later the whole world professional sport is shut down just shows you how quickly trends can change and how you just have to have your finger on the pulse. Absolutely, constantly. And so that's why people like us are here. That's why people like Tubular, Tubular Insights are here and that's why you have tools like Tubular I say you have to have your, your finger on the pulse. And yeah, I've been lucky, as I say, to be able to have played with tubular a couple of companies and it is it's one of those tools that's just so powerful. Like you'll be working on it for months and you'll just find a whole new section that you

You, you haven't even touched yet. And it's just like, so valuable. Yeah, having said that, you know, like, is not cheap. It's not like a it's not like a prosumer level model. It's really aimed at bigger media companies more like enterprise software, but it packs some serious punch. And yeah, if you're lucky enough to get your hands on it, you know, it can really, really be a game changer. So yeah, do reach out to Denis if, if you feel you kind of fit into that field.

We'll link to all of the links mentioned one of the reports, one of the tools in today's show notes. Yeah, I have to say, kind of jealous if you've had clients that have paid for that because it is so pricy that not a lot of companies Wait, you know, unless you're a big, big broadcaster. Yeah, it was I was actually working for a couple of broadcasters at the time. So yeah. I think he told like that you have to look at it as an investment not as a cost because it does have a serious return on investment as well. You know, it's not a sunk cost, like you're getting insights and making deals.

And also it's, you know, it pays for itself differently. So, thanks again, Denis. And we're looking forward to the next report.

Carlos Pacheco
Thanks again, Denis.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Tom Martin
The report says that influences kind of still dominate. Yeah. So my question was, you know, our media is cat media companies catching up in in my experience, and It might even be because I'm from that media world. I'm surprised that many companies don't have a bigger lion's share when you consider how easily they can, you know, they can look at their catalogue and they might have a few hundred thousand hours worth of content and publish, you know, day after day after day, whereas an influencer has only a finite amount of time and resources to create new content. So, you know, I think media companies have more and more. You know, I still think that's like, some companies are still five years behind the curve. Yeah. And they've got like, hundreds of hours of materials sitting on a shelf somewhere gathering dust, yeah. Whether that be on YouTube, making them money, or at the very least, I could be switching on content ID for that and monetize it that way. And for my consultancy business, I'm getting more and more calls from companies like that. I was like, Oh, yeah, I can see that everyone else is on YouTube. Like, can you help me please? My 500 different documentaries on now. Yes, I can also free my distribution arm where I'm going to people and saying, you know you've got all of this content, you're not doing anything with it, I can help you to do that. Or you can just give it to me to put on YouTube. Or at the very least you know that there's like 100 versions of your full episodes on and you should be making money from that. Yeah, yeah. prize media companies on actually taking up more of a percentage of the of the pie actually. So yeah.

Denis Crushell
And I think it's fascinating your background like at BBC studios and Endemol like the catalogs you guys had there. And a lot of the companies you work with today, when someone's got a big catalog. They can make the scale work to make some reasonable money from YouTube pretty immediately. I think it's harder maybe for the people who don't have that catalog. But I think what's fascinating from us, when we're actually working with companies is like what department does YouTube and Facebook Books sit in. So like, if it sits in marketing, it's more about reaching those audiences. So they kind of go more all in. But if it's like just monetizing, it's usually slower steps to doing that. Yeah. Which is fascinating for us with working.

Tom Martin
Yeah, that's exactly right because at the BBC, I sat in the marketing division and then went to MMR where I sat in the sprays you would call it like the monetization or the distribution arm. The kind of aggressiveness in exploiting rights and monetizing assets as much as possible is now much higher on the agenda and that you know, that really showed through on the the p&l pretty quickly so yeah, yeah, really interesting and, but still so much opportunity with people. You know, a lot of people are saying, Yeah, I've got hundreds of hours with this sitting on duct tape somewhere in a warehouse.

Denis Crushell
I think I think something that's happening in the industry which is good like looking at the likes of Channel Four and ITV, like the guys channel for who we work with, they are smart around like kind of sitting in both are and it seems like ITV is doing that as well more where it's like, we spend a lot of money on Facebook and YouTube with ads. But then we also put content out there. And there should be a coordinated strategy for that, which I think is happening more and more.

Tom Martin
Yeah, absolutely. My my kind of push to media companies is always Well, yeah, you you want to promote your new stuff. But it's easier to do when you've got an engaged organic audience yet so you know, you want to kind of give them the Evergreen stuff in the offseason. And then when it comes time to launch a new series of something, then you've got an army of fans, and a channel that's in the good books of YouTube's algorithm to promote your new ad or your new live event or your new DVD boxset whatever it may be.

My next question now I'm actually going to change a little bit. So I picked up some some kind of trends that in terms of content genres that will work in, in terms of like kids content and sport. That seems like a no, obviously not your fault. And not Tubular's fault that this in the current climate in in the midst of the COVID Panda, is that those trends are probably a little bit outdated. But I know that recently, you released an updated report about what's been trending. Yeah. More recently, while people have kind of been globally locked down at home and more access to YouTube and other platforms. So I'd like to if you can, just to share a bit. Yeah. That data as well. Yeah. can talk us about like, what what are the genres that are really popping now that people are home?

Denis Crushell
Yeah, sounds good. I think and since we did the VidCon reports, yeah, a lot has changed over time. See Then I guess looking at February and March, we actually looked at just a week in February. So February 23, to February 29. And then we looked at March 15 21st. And we looked at, like, how many videos are being uploaded. And as well, we have a metric, a tubular that we look at called v seven, which basically is like seven day TV rating. It's like how many views that a video gets on average from seven days of upload, because we timestamp videos every day. So it gives all videos and equal opportunity to get the same amount of views to benchmark them. And we looked at this Yeah, for these weeks. So pre COVID-19 kind of pre already COVID-19 posts COVID-19 like really being this a global basis. The categories that we saw really kind of pop. From an uploads and views standpoint, the the one that really stands out is health and fitness. is like on an approval basis is up 76% and on a views basis, every video is getting 59% more views on average than it was before. COVID. I think we talked about. Yeah, I think we talked about that Joe Wix example. I think other ones. Sports is a notable one that's down. Obviously, there's less content to be uploaded there. And less. Yeah, well, it's interesting that the uploaded is like 40% down, but the views is only 15% down. So people are still consuming us. And like the catalog of all that content.

Tom Martin
Yeah. There's an opportunity that I've worked with quite a few sports brands in the last few months. And a lot of their focus is on okay, highlights from yesterday, from last night. But they're sitting on catalogues of just a wealth of incredible moments, even like last year and five years ago, let alone in the last 34 years. So I think It's a good time now to realize, okay, let's get some evergreen stuff out there. Or we recently saw on Sunday just passed that the official FA Cup channel was replay in an FA Cup Final live and live streaming for Arsenal versus. I was there at the game just right there.

Denis Crushell
You're an Arsenal fan?

Tom Martin
I'm a season ticket holder, which is currently sitting in front of me and because there's no football, but yeah, I think you know, it's giving people an opportunity to look at their back catalogue and say, Yeah, okay, what else can we do to feed this hunger and, and what can we do with this back catalogue that's got huge value, but we sometimes don't have time to capitalize on it because we have to focus on you know, what's the highlight that happened yesterday?

Denis Crushell
Yeah, yep. And then I fully agree, and I think you're You can see some of the sports guys as well look at like, more behind the scenes and stuff, can they still produce content? It's not about the match. But I think other categories kids and entertainment is up 30%. The other fashion is off as well. computers and technology. So lots of people are actually looking at computer videos and stuff, interesting cars and vehicles videos are off as well. So people are consuming more loss. But across the board, like on YouTube, this is it looks like just this random week that we picked before and after. It looks like viewership is up about 10% on average, across YouTube. Just for that week. Yeah.

Tom Martin
Yeah. And it will probably increase as more and more countries and major metropolitan cities kind of go into lockdown.

Denis Crushell
Yeah. And I think on the kids side, actually from talking to some of the guys in the kids space. Like it's interesting to hear that like they're looking to produce more education content, like fitness content. And I was the other way Just even something like there's a lot of like wash your hands videos like Nursery Rhymes on YouTube. And they're like exploding at the moment, like four or five acts. So yeah, it's interesting to see how people are adapting to trying to produce content or get tough on content that is higher in demand now,

Tom Martin
What about live video because, you know, I'm seeing, obviously, Jay wicks, which we've spoken about, and there's a big kind of celebrity or celebrity, quote, unquote, Myleene Klass who is the famous pop is radio DJ and a musician and she's doing live music lessons. Like David Walliams is releasing short stories every day on the SoundCloud more kind of appointment to view type stuff. Have you seen any increase on that? Or is it kind of too early to tell?

Denis Crushell
Yeah, we have we we're currently creating a report around live consumption and it's YouTube and Twitter grants are YouTube and Twitch that we're looking at. And both are up. I've seen some of the stats already. I know that twitch was fascinating because even in our team meeting this week, I was asking people who are well, everyone's talking about what they did over the weekend and talking about like, are they on zoom? Like, or hangouts or house party, the other app where people are like hanging out socially and stuff? Yeah. And someone was saying that they were on like, a big quiz. Like there's a 10,000 people on that for a twitch livestream. And they were giving out like, a big massive pop quiz. And I was gonna say it's a shame that I was it called IQ that quiz that shut down. Could you imagine how much traction that would be getting right now? Yeah, well, I read that that actually come back. It came back I think this week or something. Yeah, but we have seen that like usage for live or sorry, consumption of live increased massively on YouTube and Twitch and it sounds like it's interesting in the twitch side. might just be on the gaming side that we all think of when it comes to twitch. But I know that we're releasing a report around that in the next week. So yes, for your listeners go to our websites, there's an insights tab there for all of this stuff will be hosted on.

Tom Martin
profits are moving to that the insights tab so you can find it. So I'd like to quickly get back to the the product and the toolset. And you know, there's there's so many different sides to that tool. Yeah, I remember we're not using it, we were kind of poking around, we came up with interesting use cases that other people weren't necessarily using it for. So you know, we were using it to silicate content ideologies and stuff like that. So I'd love to know what what are some of the kind of big, non conventional use cases and success stories that you've seen over the last few years. I recently saw you published some news about some work you've been dealing with moonbug stuff like that aside, I'd love to hear more about weird and wonderful ways that people are using Tubular.

Denis Crushell
Yeah, good question. I think, I think on the content ID side, as a lot of your listeners will know how Content ID works. tubular is kind of a great addition to that sometimes to pick up methods where people are using meta data to talk about your IP, they might not have the IP in that video, or they might have snippets or trying to go around Content ID. But tubular is a good way of trying to find that. But as well, for platforms for content, it doesn't work as well. Yeah, like I don't think there is, well, maybe let's just say Twitter or Instagram or those platforms where you can do more kind of resource like that. That's an interesting use case. I think something that the digital first guys have always kind of used our platform for is like, I want to find content that's trending as fast as possible. That's new, and they have done a great job over the years of like finding viral clips as fast as possible and And then either licensing that IP or maybe recreating the IP themselves. Like I know there was a spider capture video that Business Insider did a few years ago and other partners of ours copied that video, but it was quite easy was just his kind of spider catcher thing that got millions upon millions of views. I think another interesting thing some broadcasters are doing are like they're trying to find funny clips about their IP that fans have created, and then uploading them themselves on their own pages or channels to get large audiences. What else are unusual use cases? I guess like identifying, like just identifying in the branded content space who is spending a lot of money in this space and as well, looking at like the people, whether that be influencers who actually are open to it. commercialising their audiences more than others. So some people type in like keywords like sponsored by is sponsored and we have a product called dealmaker the picks this stuff up. But it's interesting to look at that as a use case. I think I think like real benchmarking, like for brands looking at how much share voice they have versus one another, and then trying to model that data with like, point of sale purchases. I know we work with a lot of people in the toys space, and they do see a big correlation between volume of views on YouTube, whether that be UGC are owned and operated with people actually buying product and in the gaming space as well. So they're kind of interesting use cases I would say, yeah,

Tom Martin
yeah. I'm really interested about your kind of branded content brand matching to service them. Who does that? Ideally work for is it more for people They are looking for influencers to promote their stuff. A kind of very specific question. And I'm glad you mentioned that you'd worked with sponsorships earlier on is Yeah, you know, I seen a growing increase in interest that, you know, people are looking for kind of channel wide sponsors because you know, right when I take ties ation becomes harder. Have you seen this service lead to like, more channel wide sponsorships? Because I try to think of like, successful examples of that. It's hard for me to really think about anything long term. I know that you know, Jamie Oliver had Drinks Tube that was sponsored by Bacardi. I've got a Spanish language channel that's sponsored by a Spanish language brand. And so I'm really fascinated in that I'm getting more and more people asking about it more and more people want to like they've got no idea where to where to start. Does it work? Does your tool really help with something like that?

Denis Crushell
Yeah. Yeah, I think our Yeah, our product, which is called dealmaker, like basically measures all of the links between sponsors and uploaders, whether that be a media company, an influencer, and we basically bring transparency to the whole market of like what's happening in that space? And yes, we've we really helps with with the companies we work with is identify who is spending in the space. So they know already that like branded content works for them. We're partnering with people, and then it helps them to benchmark their performance versus others, to bring it to people to make them aware. I think someone we work with like News Corp. They've done a lot of work for like Gillette over the years with the sun. And some of their performance is amazing, but they had no idea that like they had some of the best performance ever for partnerships for Jeunesse until we showed them And then I would say yeah and and so it really like how we describe it as we said how to prospect pitch and report and yeah, there's a company that we work with called jungle creations where they've gone on record to say that we've made the millions of pounds and those guys are doing like more longer term partnerships with people like got Bailey's and other brands. JB balding and the team over there do a great job of all of that they're they're very big in the food space with brands such as twisted and others. So yes, it does I think on the influencer side. Yeah, people are I think the influencer side seems to be booming. But it's interesting. It's like at one stage it looked like it was kind of going very Instagram focused. But then it's kind of come back to YouTube a bit more again. And yeah, it's fascinating to see always how much that influencer space is changing all the time.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I think there's probably a bit of confidence knocked out of the Instagram influencer market with public controversy around like fake fake followers and paid for followers and stuff like that. Whereas YouTube generally, of course, there's bought there's paid for views and paid for followers but I think it has less. Now it has a lot of bot detection and stuff like that whereas influent whereas Instagram probably has less interest in closing down kind of bot accounts and artificially inflated accounts, where YouTube I think can quite easily kind of detected the Li like views from bots and stuff like that, but who knows I'm just getting nerdy.

So was kind of next for tubular is there like some new features that are on the horizon that you're yeah excited. I don't if you can talk about any of them on or she got some super…

Denis Crushell
well, I think one thing actually that's leading to this but as well kind of, you're saying a new, interesting use cases of tubular like, where we work with some clients as well where we give them like data feeds and it's interesting to see kind of some of the products and stuff people are creating on their side. And via using Tubular like I saw an example yesterday where someone has like a slack bot created on their side where they can kind of just quickly ask for information about any influencer or media company. Where else the audience spend time. I don't know if you'll remember that feature, Tom, but it looks like where else my audience has spent time. And that's cool to see like companies integrate tubular data for hundreds of employees at a company via communication tools. And then I would say yes, where we're going and everything. So I think that is insteresting.

Seeing like people using our data mixing with other data such as like, point of sale for toys, or integrating into workflow products, then I would say as well, a big initiative for us over the last year has been this global video measurement Alliance, where we have worked with these partners and global video measurement Alliance. And with us, like we've now worked with how many companies is that it's about 12. We work with like brew BuzzFeed discovery free media, electric house, a UK company here, Mattel web media, and we're working with them on like, creating measurement standards for the industry. And what we're trying to do there is really create better and stronger

economics of the marketplace of people investing in online video if you're an advertiser, but as well if you're a media company or influencer, making sure that you're able to tell people about the size of your audience, and that's something that we've been

really focused on for the last year. And we're bringing out like, very interesting data around, around minutes watched, really kind of reach and frequency, if you think about like, even how brands like to invest. So that's been something that we're we're very focused on. And we're excited about, like, bringing out more metrics around that. And, and, and really kind of creating a currency just like the way you think of comScore Nielsen is a currency at Jupiter having a currency, where agencies and brands maybe use it more in like planning campaigns. So that's what we're very excited about at the moment.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I think that can only be more positive for any anyone working in video because it means that if advertisers have got more trust and faith in where their advertising dollars are going, it will hope they'll hopefully realize that it's a lot more effective than traditional, you know, kind of analog TV advertising print and stuff like that. Yeah, so a few more of those dollars will be moving the way of the digital should.

Thanks so much Denis. Where can people hear more about you and tubular work where's the best place people can go We'll link to all of the specific articles you've mentioned but where would you like people to kind of get to view or do you?

Denis Crushell
Yeah, you can you can email me directly if you want denis@tubularlabs.com. But otherwise I'd recommend Yeah, people go to our websites and there's a lot of research and insights we give out to the industry in general to help people pay even if you're not working directly with us but so I would tell our website tubular labs comm is a great place to visit you can also sign up to her like free product there where you can look at like how you rank versus others on a global capacity on YouTube and Facebook or leaderboard product. And yeah, so I would say our website Jupiter labs comm or get in touch on email or LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on as well.

Tom Martin
Cool. Thanks, Denis. It's been absolutely fascinating and yeah, look forward to hearing more from you. Always in interested to hear your latest reports. And I'm sure they're going to be even more interesting and more important, the current situation in the world so thanks a million Denis. Yeah, make sure you go and check out all of the incredible stuff that we'll be linking to in the show notes.

Denis Crushell
Thank you. Bye, everyone.

Carlos Pacheco
That was great. Tom Tubular is one of those platforms that I remember jumping on many many years ago when it when it launched and being like, finally, somebody who's doing this because the whole comparison of like Nielsen and comScore , BARB… one of the biggest frustrations when I was in marketing is the lack of support for digital real digital tracking from these old school platforms, right? The the Nielsen the comScore to this world. So, you know, tubular, I knew exactly what they were trying to do, and it's great to hear that they've established themselves as you know, the Nielsen of YouTube in a way, and can give that you know all those insights and information that all of us that create video online. We don't care about how much views ABC TV makes we care about how many views TikTok does Facebook. So there needed to be a specific video platform to serve that. Yeah. And the fact that he comes from Google and YouTube for many years, you know, that he's got some serious credit knows what he's talking about.

Tom Martin
Yeah, I've known Denis for a number of years, and I didn't really I obviously had done my research before the interview, but it was, you know, it's not like I knew him as like an ex YouTube ex Googler. So that's really interesting to get that perspective. And yeah, and it makes sense because he really does get creators, he gets publishers and he just lives and breathes. It is like so dedicated. It's so knowledgeable and the as I say, they're really generous with that with that they was there any kind of trend trend and stuff from the reportsFrom the kind of Coronavirus type trends that surprised you, or was it all kind of Yeah, standard?

Carlos Pacheco
I mean, from the from the you Facebook know, one of the comments that he made that was sort of like total like, Yes, I know that that happens is the whole like how these new platforms, the platforms that are quote unquote, going viral the cups of the world, they're all trying to age up. They're all trying to age up because let's face it, like and I think I've sort of like been on the soapbox before in previous episodes is, you know, yes, you get scale, quote, unquote, scale from the kids, but that's not where you're gonna make money. It's the same situation, you know, you can compare it to what we're seeing right now with the whole, you know, Corona ad pocalypse in a way right? Yes, you get tons of views, but like money is nowhere to be seen. Yes. You know, the the whole fallacy of like, we need to target kids. Yes, there's certain brands but there's a lot more brands out there that care about

An older demographic with money and older demographics with money are not spending, you know, two hours a day on tik tok. They're spending that time on more established platforms. That's why it's YouTube's done, its best to clean its act up. And every platform is trying to do the clean act up, but they all play the same game of like, getting scale from kids and then to last, hopefully the last long enough to get that great older audience to get into, you know, to make real money. Yeah, that's the sort of point that I really that was interesting that, you know, I love the fact that he sort of confirmed my, my opinion.

And also, you know, like the minutes washed point about how you know, 18 to 34 on Facebook, YouTube, represents 50% of the audience, whereas he mentioned 4% 13 to 17. But I wasn't clear as to if it was Facebook or YouTube because I think YouTube still has a lot of that audience. The younger demographic has definitely dropped off Facebook.

So again, those type of like, you know, insights are very fun to sort of like, pay attention to and put out there and make people realize that that's why, you know, you don't make as much money in certain platforms versus others.

Tom Martin
So I think the fact that Denis and chilla published this kind of what's what's the trend in the BC report? And like sport was a big thing. And then, you know, a month later the whole world professional sport is shut down just shows you how quickly trends can change and how you just have to have your finger on the pulse. Absolutely, constantly. And so that's why people like us are here. That's why people like Tubular, Tubular Insights are here and that's why you have tools like Tubular I say you have to have your, your finger on the pulse. And yeah, I've been lucky, as I say, to be able to have played with tubular a couple of companies and it is it's one of those tools that's just so powerful. Like you'll be working on it for months and you'll just find a whole new section that you

You, you haven't even touched yet. And it's just like, so valuable. Yeah, having said that, you know, like, is not cheap. It's not like a it's not like a prosumer level model. It's really aimed at bigger media companies more like enterprise software, but it packs some serious punch. And yeah, if you're lucky enough to get your hands on it, you know, it can really, really be a game changer. So yeah, do reach out to Denis if, if you feel you kind of fit into that field.

We'll link to all of the links mentioned one of the reports, one of the tools in today's show notes. Yeah, I have to say, kind of jealous if you've had clients that have paid for that because it is so pricy that not a lot of companies Wait, you know, unless you're a big, big broadcaster. Yeah, it was I was actually working for a couple of broadcasters at the time. So yeah. I think he told like that you have to look at it as an investment not as a cost because it does have a serious return on investment as well. You know, it's not a sunk cost, like you're getting insights and making deals.

And also it's, you know, it pays for itself differently. So, thanks again, Denis. And we're looking forward to the next report.

Carlos Pacheco
Thanks again, Denis.

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